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Category Archives: Scouts

Which Schools Give Scouts the Most Headaches?

29 Thursday Oct 2015

Posted by itlneil in Scouts

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NFL Scouting

One might think that all schools want to see their players drafted, right? It brings press and prestige to the program, and helps a team land the next big recruits, one would think.

Well, one would be wrong, at least in some cases. We polled several scouts to get their opinions on what schools give them the most problems. Some were diplomatic, some less so. The one school that came through more than once was Auburn, but I’ll let the scouts do the talking.

Here are five responses we got from different scouts. Auburn was the only school named more than once, and it was named three times.

  • “All schools are different. Some (are) certainly “easier” than others based on a lot of factors. But in the end, it’s a long evaluation process and teams generally get what they need (even if it’s not as easily accessible as they would like).”
  • “So many bad ones and so many very good ones. Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, UCLA, Arizona, Florida, Oregon, Stanford, would be at the top of the lists before this year. Worst visits would be K-State, Louisville (and) used to be Texas, but not sure now with (head coach Charlie) Strong. (Former Texas head coach) Mack Brown was a really good guy, but you had to work really hard to get information. It should be better (now). Basically there are some difficult coaches who make your job difficult.”
  • “TCU, Georgia Tech and Auburn come to mind. They just restrict viewing practice and when you can visit. (Auburn has) actually gotten better. Georgia Tech is possibly the worst in the South. They only let you watch practice for 12 minutes. (Head coach Paul Johnson) doesn’t care.”
  • “Most of the colleges out west are pretty good. Sometimes, some of the SEC schools can be difficult. But it’s different with different steps. Sometimes you can go to Alabama or Georgia and you’re great to deal with, but under a different staff there, (it’s) tougher to deal with. Same thing with any other college. . . Obviously all the big schools have high-end equipment and some of the lower-end schools (Division II, Division III) and some of the traditionally African-American schools sometimes don’t have as good equipment. . .  .”
  • “Auburn, Michigan and Michigan State to name a few. (Auburn head coach Gus Malzahn) is odd but his assistants are good people.”
  • “Auburn and Oklahoma State.”

WSW: All-Star Antics

28 Wednesday Oct 2015

Posted by itlneil in Scouts

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all star game, NFL Scouting

The NFLPA Collegiate Bowl and the Shrine Game have both sent out their first round of invitations, and with the Senior Bowl slated to do the same on Monday, it’s about that time when conversation turns to the showcases where scouts get to evaluate top players from the ’16 draft class.

It got me thinking about a question I get at times, which is: were the players at the games you ran ever a problem? I can think of two good examples.

The first instance was in the first game I ever worked. It was called the Inta Juice North-South All-Star Classic in Houston in 2007. I was Personnel Director for the game, and still trying to figure out exactly where I fit into the football landscape.

It was played the second week in January ’07, and after spending the fall cobbling together a roster from scratch with the game’s president, my friend, Dave Ippoliti, we got through game week with a feeling of exhaustion and accomplishment. Though it was the first time any of us had done anything like this, we had arrived at game day, and we were feeling pretty satisfied. Except for a few late buses and a full week of chicken wings meals at every lunch (we had found a vendor who would trade us meals for advertising), I was pretty satisfied. However, I remember an event that took a bit of shine off the experience.

The players had just gotten off the bus and were filing into the lockers to get dressed when someone remarked about a missing piece of gear — a mouthpiece, or an ear pad, or something along those lines. I said something along the lines of, ‘I’ll take care of it,’ but before I could get going, I heard something along the lines of, “You better, because y’all haven’t given us anything all week.”

It was Lane College WR Jacoby Jones. Though he had come from a tiny school, we had given him a chance in our game, and he performed, parlaying his appearance into a Shrine Game slot the following week and, in the draft, a third-round selection by the Texans. Though we felt we’d been quite charitable in getting him a look with scouts, he was frustrated because we hadn’t loaded him up with swag such as free hoodies, track suits and shoes with fancy game logos. This was a bit of an omen; Jones showed his petulance on more than one occasion in the league and had his share of off-field incidents, including a celebrated party bus fight with a stripper and a DWI arrest.

The only other incident came in 2008, the following year, when I was running the Hula Bowl as its Executive Director. Though most of our players were on their best behavior (including Fresno State DT Jason Shirley, who wore a suit everywhere he went — in Hawaii — to try to dispel a few character issues), there was one player who was always on our case. If we had to change the schedule, or a meeting was cancelled, or a practice ran late, there was Western Michigan OG James Blair, showing up at our game headquarters with a big frown, there to express his dissatisfaction with this latest injustice. It got to where every time we saw him, we wanted to run the other way, because he was never happy. I remember the week after the game a Bucs scout called me to ask if we’d had any problems with any players. I gave him one name, and I remember that after I told him, I got the sense that that was the name he was expecting.

If you’re a player who gets a game invite, or the parent or agent of a young man hoping to get one, make sure you urge him not to be a malcontent during game week. His unhappiness might not mean anything to scouts (as with Jones), but it might wind up having an impact (Blair, despite getting invited to the combine, went undrafted and bounced around briefly with three teams before leaving the league).

WSW: A Little Help From His Coach

21 Wednesday Oct 2015

Posted by itlneil in Agents, Scouts

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NFL agent, NFL Scouting

Players get to the NFL in different ways. Some are obvious talents that are highly regarded by ‘Internet scouts’ as well as league evaluators, and some take less direct routes. Last week, we chronicled the story of a Saints OH Khiry Robinson, who had to wait for an all-star invite, then wait for an NFL camp tryout invite, and finally beat the odds by making the team in New Orleans.

This week, we illustrate the ‘who you know’ aspect of evaluation with another former Saints rusher, Pierre Thomas, who is the team’s all-time leader in catches by a running back. Though Thomas was never a headline-grabber during his time in the Crescent City, he was a reliable part of an explosive offense and a versatile back.

He came in through the back door with the Saints, however, with the help of a former coach. Ex-Saints scout Barrett Wiley tells the story of how the team wound up signing him as an undrafted free agent. Here’s the full interview, if you want to check it out.

“(Assistant special teams coach Greg McMahon), the position coach who coached Pierre (at Illinois had recently been hired to the Saints’ staff). . . and he knew what Pierre would bring to the table. So he knew that every day, Pierre was going to show up, (and) he was going to work as hard as he could. He was going to give his all, everything he could, and he . . . informed us that, you know, Pierre may not be the prettiest, the biggest, the fastest, but he’s going to work. At worst, if he makes the roster, he’s going to be able to contribute on special teams, because everyone has a role on the NFL team. Whether you’re a starter or a backup, you have to contribute on special teams. So with that said, Pierre came in — Pierre was a need position – an (undrafted free agent) after the draft and he became that running back who just blossomed into a solid borderline starter and a contributor for the Saints. He was a guy who showed up every day, did everything, you know, just whatever his deficiencies were, he overcame them. That’s the best way to describe Pierre. I can’t say anything negative about him. He can’t break an 80-yard run; that’s his only negative if you think about it. But everything else he does, he does well and you can live with it.

“The coach would start to talk him up a lot . . . leading into the draft . . . like that Thursday, Friday (before draft weekend). He would come down (to talk to the scouts), and say, ‘I got a guy.’ He would come to the draft room and say, ‘I got a guy, (and) wherever he may be on the board, when we need a running back, I got a guy.’ One of those situations. The coach, he’s putting his neck on the line for that guy in terms of, from his evaluation standpoint, not his true livelihood, but just his evaluation standpoint. So the coach said, ‘hey, I got a guy,’ and we went with that. The area scout watched him, and said, ‘well, it depends on what you want, but I wouldn’t have a problem with that, I wouldn’t fight against that.’ (It was) one of those situations.”

What a Difference A Year Makes

19 Monday Oct 2015

Posted by itlneil in Scouts

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Cardale Jones, NFL Scouting

The emergence of Cardale Jones, from Ohio State’s third-string QB to its savior during the Buckeyes’ title run, was a fascinating story to me, and many others, last season.

However, what was even more fascinating was that some indicated that he was a near-certain first-rounder (maybe even a top-10 pick), and there was plenty of buzz that Jones mulled entering the ’15 draft following his three-game ‘career’ (Big Ten Championship plus two games in the 2015 College Football Playoff National Championship) at the end of last season.

It looks like such speculation was premature. After a series of mediocre performances, OSU head coach Urban Meyer is weighing a change at quarterback. Now that Jones has shown he’s human, I reached out to several scouts on where they saw him going last fall. I got five responses. They were pretty much in line with what I thought — that no matter what he’d done in three games, it was just three games. Of course, one of the scouts expressed his belief that Jones had done enough to get him drafted well above where he belonged, based on the ‘wow’ factor.

The responses:

  • “I have no idea because it was pretty much a moot point last year. Talk is one thing, but it’s hard to justify taking anybody in the first round with only three starts. Obviously, he ended last year better than he’s begun this year. With all that being said, I think that at the end of the day, he is what he is with a whole lot of speculation to write about.”
  • “Anybody that suggests they knew where he would have gone last year is crazy. The games are obviously the biggest piece of the evaluation and he had just three games. No medical. No time with the kid. So much unknown – on all players until they go thru the full evaluation process.”
  • “4th-5th. I wasn’t that impressed with him last year.”
  • “3rd QB taken in the draft (presumably after Marcus Mariota and Jameis Winston), based on three-game resume. (You have to) come out when you are HOT.”
  • “I don’t know enough about him to say. I guess that most of the people who were talking last year were doing it off TV scouting, whether they were (draft) analysts or scouts.”

Based on what my friends in evaluation say, Jones would most likely have been very disappointed if he had left expecting to go in the first 32 picks.

To me, the biggest takeaway is that actual scouts’ views of a player’s prospects differ greatly from what you can find on the Web. But by now, if you read this blog regularly, you probably already knew that.

WSW: Finding a Running Back

14 Wednesday Oct 2015

Posted by itlneil in Scouts

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NFL Scouting

All scouting and evaluation is a crap shoot. It’s very inexact, no matter what teams and draft gurus tell you. One area where I think scouts err the most is at running back, and you don’t have to go back far to find them.

There’s former Ravens and Chiefs running back Priest Holmes, who was a dominant force in the late 90s/early 00s, and today, there’s Houston’s Arian Foster, Carolina’s Mike Tolbert, San Diego’s Danny Woodhead, Seattle’s Fred Jackson and many more. Look back even further and two Hall of Famers, Joe Perry and Marion Motley, were also undrafted.

One team that’s had a lot of success with undrafted running backs is the Saints, who won a Super Bowl with Pierre Thomas as a versatile, hard-running back with great pass-catching ability. Today, though the team is struggling, it’s no fault of Khiry Robinson, another hard-running back who went undrafted.

I’ve already told the story of my fumbling of an opportunity to get Thomas (along with Tolbert) discovered. For the story of a friend who was smarter about an off-the-grid running back, I’ll turn to Justin VanFulpen, who despite being an agent today has a long history of running various successful all-star games. Justin invited Robinson to the last edition of the Texas vs. The Nation game in Allen, Texas, just outside Dallas.

“I remember seeing highlights of him and liked his running style, but all the scouts I talked to to get a buy-in called him a JAG (just a guy).

“He was the last running back to be added, and one reason I even added him was because I needed another Texas running back. I only had one small-time agent calling me about him. Can’t even remember the guy’s name.

“He had good stats and looked the part, and he was very humbled when I invited him, and he accepted right away. He thought it was too good to be true, and he thanked me a ton for the opportunity.

“He was able to go in that week of practice and outshine D.J. Harper from Boise State, Matthew Tucker from TCU and Ronnie Wingo from Arkansas, and be the best running back on the Texas side. Only (Raiders RB) Latavius Murray from UCF has had a better career so far in the NFL.

“Scouts liked the fact that he ran hard, but still didn’t sign him as a (priority free agent). He had to go to the Saints as a tryout guy, then ended up getting a chance to sign.

“I was surprised he didn’t sign as a priority free agent, so I checked in with him a day after the draft and he told me he got a tryout.”

Even though Robinson once shared a backfield with Cam Newton (while at Blinn College in Bryan, Texas), he barely registered with NFL teams while bouncing from Mesabi Range Community College to Blinn to West Texas A&M. But his play at the TVN game sparked something, and years later, he’s part of an NFL backfield.

 

 

“The Value Is The Film”

13 Tuesday Oct 2015

Posted by itlneil in Agents, Scouts

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NFL agent, NFL Scouting

This morning, I got a text from an agent who’s been a client and a friend for a long time. He told me one of the FXFL teams is in complete disarray, and that the players had gone on strike. Meanwhile, the coach had walked out (mid-practice, I was told) and the players hadn’t been paid since the season started two weeks ago. According to my source, their laundry wasn’t getting done and they didn’t even have water at their workouts!

In my efforts to confirm the strike (I’m still working on it), I reached out to another agent who’s been hardened to the roller-coaster world of minor-league football. Though he’s got two clients in the FXFL, he’s all too aware of the pitfalls of playing in these leagues. “It’s crazy,” he texted me. “The value is the film, but (the league) can’t keep screwing the players.”

This morning’s texts came on the heels of another communication I got last night from the father of a player who narrowly missed a camp invite this spring. His son, a very good college player who still has NFL dreams, had just been told that his school would not allow its seniors from ’15 to attend its 2016 pro day, a big change from previous seasons. It left my friend’s son with limited options and no way to jump-start his pro football career. I had to tell him his son’s only remaining options were probably paid tryouts (costs are usually around $100) with Arena and CFL teams. It wasn’t easy to tell him that.

So here’s the takeaway. This week, as I mentioned in Monday’s report, more than a hundred agents from the 2015 class were added to the NFLPA’s rolls. Many of those agents will soon start getting phone calls and/or emails from desperate players from recent draft classes, hoping to get one more chance at film. They’re mostly willing to go to the AFL, or the CFL, or to virtually any league that might get them fresh film, which in turn might get them another look with the NFL.

In November, these new agents will hear from dozens of players slated for the ’16 draft class that aren’t getting recruited by agents, but still want to play in the NFL. If (when?) the ’16 draft comes and goes with no calls from the league, they’ll be looking for fresh film, too.

If you’re among those in the new agent class, understand that only a select few players are NFL-worthy, but thousands believe they are. Be very careful about believing a player’s story when he tells you he’d be a top prospect if not for a bit of bad luck. The road to finding new film is a long and winding one, and it usually leads only to a dead end.

WSW: When, Why and Where Do Teams Gamble in the Draft?

07 Wednesday Oct 2015

Posted by itlneil in ITL, Scouts

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Gambling, NFL Scouting

Some years ago, I had a conversation with former 49ers scout Oscar Lofton that we filmed for ITL. It was pretty wide-ranging, and I had the time of my life as we discussed a number of topics related to scouting. Here’s an interesting story about Deion Sanders that Oscar shared that day.

One thing we talked about was a team’s philosophy toward the last rounds of the draft. My contention was that teams see them as throwaway picks, and I know the 49ers did specifically because, in 1996, they drafted identical twins Sean and Sam Manuel out of tiny New Mexico State as a sort of lighthearted public relations move.

Here are some excerpts from our conversation with my analysis and conclusions after each passage.

Lofton: “From late-fifth round all the way through the seventh, sometimes you have — because of a trade . . . or because of some kind of deal that’s happened, or some compensatory trades that have been made, or people that left your club — you get some of those picks, and you try to kind of stack up with some sixth-, seventh-round people.”

Analysis: I think this is interesting because even though Oscar left the Niners in the early ’00s, he’s admitting that even then, the team looked at any picks after the late fifth round as strictly a gamble, and therefore they rolled the dice on players that were boom-or-bust types. My observation is that teams are doubling down on this now, taking guys that fit all the metrics but that might not have the Football IQ they need. I think a great example of this is the Saints, a team that hit big on some boom-or-bust types (TE Jimmy Graham) as well as late-rounders (WO Marques Colston) and undrafted free agents (DE Junior Galette), then got lulled into a pattern of gambling earlier in the draft, which came home to roost in 2014 with several picks (second-rounder Stanley Jean-Baptiste and fourth-rounder Khairi Fortt) that, one year later, are no longer on the team.

Lofton: “Generally like from the fifth round on, sometimes . . . you take some phenom, you know, some guy that can jump out of the gym and everything, but he’s a football player, not just somebody that can run fast, but can catch, or can cover, or whatever you need him to do, but some kind of athlete sticks out at that level. What does he bring that makes us a better team? Well, he brings speed as a receiver, or he brings deep coverage ability as a defensive back, or he brings the ability to pass rush off of stunts, you know, as a secondary member or something, or a great special teams presence, or . . . the ability to return a punt, or to run after catch.”

Analysis: Maybe this is the key. Though scouts I talk to agree that good teams take the best athlete available early in the draft, maybe the best strategy late in the draft is to draft for need. Take an athletic ex-basketball player if you have a need at tight end or defensive end, or an ex-wrestler if you need a good interior lineman, or a track guy if your secondary is too slow.

Lofton: “You say, ‘those aren’t that important to the team,’ but you look at how many of the seventh-round people and the free agent people that have made (the Niners), and made us better, and they become crucial to you. Usually the ones that flop big are the first rounds, the . . . early picks, you know? Because you put so much into them, and then because you’ve got so much into them, you have to hang with them for so long. So while you’re hanging with them you’ve got to have somebody playing. So some of those seventh-round picks and free agents are doing the playing, and they’re getting all the money until you can figure out a way to unload (the struggling first-rounders), or until they develop.”

Analysis: Oscar’s take here is what makes me scratch my head. It seems counter-intuitive to gamble with the last three picks of the draft when there are so many players out there that excel despite being late picks or not drafted at all. More and more, teams are taking players who come from the lower levels of college football, or who played other sports primarily or otherwise excelled in workouts despite meager on-field credentials. There’s a fine line between taking a player with upside and taking a player who’s got as much chance of winning the lottery as he does of making the team.

Why Do Rookies Bust?

17 Thursday Sep 2015

Posted by itlneil in Scouts

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NFL Scouting

It’s a simple question: what makes a can’t-miss player fail?

I asked five scouts the same question, and I got a variety of responses. I expected them all to be a variation of ‘you can’t measure heart, and you have to really want it, and some players don’t,’ but it turned out to be much more than that.

Here are few responses that I got back in texts:

  • “GM and Coach-driven draft pick:” I think this response was intended to illustrate that sometimes GMs want a player, but a coach doesn’t, and either the player proves to be a bad fit for the team, or the coach doesn’t give the player a sufficient chance to succeed. I’ll buy that. It’s one reason.
  • “Reaching for a player because of need. You pass on a great player because you think you are good at that position, (and take) a player not worthy of that slot. You are one injury away from not having a great player at that position:” I think this makes sense, too. Florida State’s E.J. Manuel comes to mind. Despite a great series of pre-draft workouts, most scouts I know saw him in the third or fourth round. The Bills, however, badly needed a passer, and three years later, he’s barely hanging onto a roster spot. “It’s not the player’s fault he was overdrafted,” my friend added.
  • “There’s not a single reason. Each player — hits and misses — is unique:” I expected to get this answer from several sources, but most scouts were more specific.
  • “The No. 1 thing is they can’t play at the mental speed of the pro game. The complexity of the pro game . . . they’re not able to handle the mental pressure that is applied by having to play so much faster. It’s so much more complicated. You have to watch tape. If guys are slow reactors on the field .. . if QBs hold the ball too long, and don’t see progressions, and don’t let the ball go, they’re never gonna do it in pro ball. If a lineman can’t see the blitz, and doesn’t pass off well on stunts, there’s no way he’ll do it in pro football. You get all these wonderful measurables added up, and a coach will say, “we can fix it.” Most of the time you can’t. It’s between the ears. It’s so much mental. If you can’t play strong and sharp and fast, you start to lose confidence, and then you can’t function:” I would agree with this, but it’s a little hard to measure. How do you predict who will be able to process the speed of the game, and who won’t? It’s not the kind of thing the Wonderlic can measure.

I think draft success is a function of talent and ability, mixed with system and ability for a team to adapt to a player’s talents (and vice versa), and finally, where a player is drafted. First-rounders get paid reasonably well, and for a lot of players, a switch flips and the hunger isn’t the same as it is for a fourth-rounder who thought he was going at the top of the second round.

There are probably many more theories on why players don’t make it. I hope to revisit this topic again in the near future.

WSW: Up On The Table

16 Wednesday Sep 2015

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NFL Scouting, Senior Bowl

The first time I ever heard the term “getting up on the table” in the draft room was one of my first years at the Senior Bowl. It was at a practice, and someone was congratulating Seahawks scout Derrick Jensen for a pick the team had made in the later rounds.

It was a defensive lineman, as I recall, though the exact player I can’t remember. “Yeah, I really had to get up on the table for him,” Jensen said.

Since then, I’ve heard the term dozens of times, but rarely have I heard exact stories of a scout aggressively lobbying for a player.

I dug this one up from former Bears GM Phil Emery. He told it at the 2015 ITL Seminar, the annual event we hold at the combine for our clients, after meeting former Dolphins wide receiver Chris Chambers at our event. Chris was there representing his combine prep facility, The Chamber, which is based in South Florida. If you’d rather listen to Phil tell it himself, click here. It starts at the 3:00 mark and runs until 4:37.

“It was 2001, OK? I was the positional cross-check guy for wide-outs for the Chicago Bears. It was my first go-round with the Bears during that time, and I’ll tell you a little story.

“(Chambers) will always be in my memory bank because I was pushing for (him) hard, right? I love those big hands, and that catch radius, and all that end zone work. (He) had a catch where (he) went up over the top in a corner of an end zone and grabbed a one-hander, and it was so beautiful. It was such a moment of grace and athleticism, and just beautiful to see. The reason I’m in (football), OK, is because I see this as art. This brings joy to my heart to watch somebody do something that no other human being can do. It’s special. It’s special, and that catch was special.

“So we’re having a little debate about (Chambers), OK? And so as the positional cross-check scout, I had wide-outs, so I stack all the wide-outs in the country from one down, OK? Well we were responsible at that time — this was way before digital, OK? This is VHS and 16 MM tape. We were responsible for making the profile (tape) and cut. So what I did is, I stuck it on that catch, and repeated (his) catch 10 consecutive times so that everybody got the feel about how I felt about (him), so Mark Hatley, our Vice President of Player Personnel at that time said, ‘hey, Phil, that’s enough.”

I think it’s an even more interesting story when you realize Phil was right about Chambers. The Bears took Michigan’s David Terrell that year with the eighth pick in the draft, and Terrell was an unmitigated bust. In addition to Terrell, wide receivers taken in the first round that year included Koren Robinson (the ninth pick, to Seattle), Rod Gardner (15, Redskins), Santana Moss (16, Jets), Freddie Mitchell (25, Eagles) and Reggie Wayne (30, Colts).

Taking it one step further, receivers taken in the second round before Chambers were Quincy Morgan (33, Browns), Chad Johnson (36, Bengals) and Robert Ferguson (41, Packers). I think you could argue persuasively that only two receivers in this group, Wayne and Johnson, had better careers than Chambers. I guess Phil was right.

A Scout On How To Be A Scout

14 Monday Sep 2015

Posted by itlneil in Scouts

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NFL Scouting

I was on the phone with a longtime friend who’s an area scout last week. I was discussing with him some of my interns, and how often they are hoping to get into the business some day. I think I mentioned that I’m always trying to ‘crack the code’ for finding opportunities for young people in such a situation. His response was that it’s very simple.

“I would tell them to get G.A. jobs,” he said. “That seems to be where everyone is hiring from these days.”

Could it be that simple? Well, maybe so.

At ITL, we track these things, and do brief backgrounds on the scouts that are getting hired by NFL teams these days. I think most scouts that have been in the game more than 10 years were former coaches who moved in through their relationships. Relationships are still very important, which is just another reason to find a grad assistant job if you’re in college and hoping to be an NFL talent evaluator someday. That’s especially true if you’re a grad assistant assigned to the personnel department, a relatively new part of college staffs.

Think about it.

  • You get to work around football, obviously, even though college ‘personnel’ jobs vary widely in what they actually mean.
  • You meet key people around the game. This is especially true if you are able to help out with pro days, or even organize them; most college coaches see this as a chore, not an opportunity.
  • You get to learn all the buzzwords, practices, habits and expectations of people around the game.
  • Most importantly, you will probably meet several actual NFL scouts, and perhaps even win them over. There are no better people for bringing you into the league than those already in the league.

At the end of the day, an all-consuming work ethic is the most important thing you need to get into the business, but connections are an important part, too. If you’re a college student reading this right now, I urge you to do whatever you can to volunteer for your school’s team. Do it right now. Even if you’re already a sport management major. Even if you’ve never picked up a football in your life. It’s probably the best way to get you on track, immediately, for a job in football.

 

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